{"id":6953,"date":"2023-04-21T09:45:03","date_gmt":"2023-04-21T12:45:03","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.geolegadodeallankardec.com.br\/?p=6953"},"modified":"2023-04-21T11:34:22","modified_gmt":"2023-04-21T14:34:22","slug":"an-interesting-dialogue","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.geolegadodeallankardec.com.br\/en\/artigos\/assuntos-diversos\/um-dialogo-interessante\/","title":{"rendered":"an interesting dialogue"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"pdfprnt-buttons pdfprnt-buttons-post pdfprnt-top-right\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.geolegadodeallankardec.com.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6953?print=pdf\" class=\"pdfprnt-button pdfprnt-button-pdf\" target=\"_blank\" ><img decoding=\"async\" data-src=\"https:\/\/www.geolegadodeallankardec.com.br\/wp-content\/plugins\/pdf-print\/images\/pdf.png\" alt=\"image_pdf\" title=\"View PDF\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 32px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 32\/32;\" \/><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.geolegadodeallankardec.com.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6953?print=print\" class=\"pdfprnt-button pdfprnt-button-print\" target=\"_blank\" ><img decoding=\"async\" data-src=\"https:\/\/www.geolegadodeallankardec.com.br\/wp-content\/plugins\/pdf-print\/images\/print.png\" alt=\"image_print\" title=\"Print Content\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 32px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 32\/32;\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<p>\u2013 Oh, are you a Spiritist? Cool. Do you go to a center?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Yes, I go to one near my house.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 And what do you do there?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 <a><\/a>Ah, we watch a lecture on the Gospel, then take a pass\u2026 Then we say a few prayers, and leave. There is also child evangelization.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Aaah\u2026 So it\u2019s like a Catholic church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- No! Because Spiritism has no ritual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- Huh?! But it&#039;s just the same. At church, you arrive, there was a sermon on the Gospel, then you receive the host, then you pray, and you leave. Children participate in catechism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- No but\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- Admit it, it&#039;s the same. Even evangelization, which I know has a positive aspect, is done in this kind of imposing way, isn&#039;t it? But what surprises me is that I&#039;ve already studied a little of Spiritism, but I&#039;ve never attended a center... And, from what I&#039;ve studied, there wasn&#039;t any of that in Spiritism. For example: do you evoke Spirits to help them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 No, you cannot evoke Spirits, because you could end up obsessed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- Our! Who told you that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- Huh?! Everyone from the center! FEB itself says so!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Ah, the FEB\u2026 But\u2026 If Kardec himself evoked Spirits to learn from them, Spirits even of suicides, and often ended up helping them to reflect?!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Ah, but that was in a controlled group, and these Spirits were already calmer. And it was Kardec.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 It wasn&#039;t what I read. And it wasn&#039;t just Kardec who evoked. Did you know that, at that time, people practiced studies, with evocations even of disturbed spirits, in their homes, in small groups?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Wow, and weren\u2019t they obsessed, feeling bad, about these inferior Spirits?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Look, we are all inferior in relation to the most advanced spirits. And no, they weren&#039;t obsessed or sick. In fact, they often helped these Spirits while learning from them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There is an evocation, for example, of this suicide, which was just a few days after his death, and he appeared to be in full disarray. Kardec asked some questions, trying to understand what was going on with that Spirit, and with these questions, he understood something. Then he asked for prayers and said goodbye, because he didn&#039;t want to talk anymore. I agree that seriousness and control are needed, but Kardec never mentioned any of the mediums becoming obsessed while trying to learn, with the analysis of the situation of Spirits like this, and even murderers!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- Murderers?!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- Yes! There is an evocation of Assassin Lemaire, look for it in the Spiritist Magazine of 1858, it is very interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 And you said they evoked DAYS after death?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Yes. Sometimes, hours later!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Hours?! But I&#039;ve always heard that, in addition to not being able to evoke, you have to wait patiently for that Spirit to gain the light and come to communicate of its own accord.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- This is not true. It all depends on the purpose. As the intention was to analyze these Spirits psychologically, there was no problem. Furthermore, it is clear that they respected the will of the Spirits. Many times they did not want to talk about their sufferings. There is another problem there: Kardec has always shown that being available to any Spirit brings the danger of purposeless, often misleading, communications.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But then you don&#039;t do evocations in the center?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 No. There is even a meeting of mediums, but it is closed to the public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Oh, natural. But there they evoke, then, to learn and help?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- No no. They are available to any spirit that wants to communicate. These days, they received communication from the Apostle John!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 How do they know it was John, and not another? Did they later question the guiding Spirit of the group?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Spirit guide? No, the Spirit SAID that he was John the apostle and spoke of Jesus and the need for much prayer because the deadline is coming.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Ah\u2026 But\u2026 What if this Spirit was using the apostle\u2019s name and beautiful words to pass on wrong teachings?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Oh, but\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 And at home, do you practice Spiritism?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 What do you mean, practice?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Study, evoke Spirits for learning purposes by analyzing their situations\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 If we don&#039;t evoke it even in the center, do you think we&#039;re going to evoke it at home? Get out! Will a Spirit decide to stay there?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 What do you mean, \u201cstay there\u201d? Spirits are everywhere. There are definitely some here right now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Good God!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- Yes of course! And they are attracted by affinity of thoughts. If the evocation is done with serious intent and with knowledge, there is no problem. The wrong thing is to evoke it as a joke or lightly. If the evocator is proud, for example, a frivolous spirit can appear and say things that feed that pride. There, without studying, and willing to cultivate his own pride, the subject enters the spirit and ends up fascinated. This is the danger, but this can happen even through intuition, indirectly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Wow, I didn\u2019t know that. I had already heard that, if you evoke a disturbed Spirit, it \u201csticks\u201d to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- No of course not. It depends on the intention and preparation. Well, but is there at least a study at this center? Like, studying the works of Kardec, the Revista Esp\u00edrita\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Spiritist Magazine? What&#039;s that? No, we study works by Chico and Divaldo, because we know that Kardec&#039;s works are outdated in many points, right?!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Outdated? My friend, I know that there are even beautiful and correct things in these mediumistic works, but they were the result of uncontrolled communications. How, without studying Kardec, do they recommend the study of mediumistic works? Spiritism is science!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Science? No! Spiritism is religion!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 That was not what Kardec demonstrated. Have you read Genesis?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Wow, I already took a leaf, but very difficult and, as I said, outdated! Imagine they believed there was life on the moon!!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 But, my friend, that was part of the human science of the time. But there is the part of the spiritist science.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Spiritist Science?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Yes, what was developed by the methodological study of Kardec, with the use of reason and with the need for universal confirmation of the teachings of the Spirits. But then, if there is a group of mediums in the house, how did it form?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Ah, they are very old mediums in the house, and the group is closed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 But what about other people\u2019s mediumship?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Ah, if a \u201cgood\u201d medium appears there, he has to take a 5-year course in Spiritism!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 But what course, if they don\u2019t study Kardec?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 No, there, there, there are some FEB booklets, where Kardec is discussed\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 At least something!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 And then there is the complement with mediumistic works. Have you seen the works of Ramatis, about mediumship??<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- My God\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- What?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Friend, Ramatis is a pseudo-sage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Pseudo what?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 It means that he pretends to be a wise man, but there are several absurdities in these works. We don&#039;t even know, in fact, if it&#039;s just a Spirit, because anyone can use that name.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 But I&#039;ve seen some of his things, they seemed coherent<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Consistent? Well, being a Spirit, it is clear that something or other will be true... But the problem is that they accept what this or these Spirits say without even reasoning! These works are mystic, not doctrinal.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 How are they not doctrinal? The same thing he says, many others also say. It&#039;s not that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>- Not only that. It is necessary to submit this to reason, which demands knowledge. What is already established by this process can only be undone by the same process, that is, it is not enough to say the same thing everywhere, when there is no control, no method, no rationality. For example: Ramatis talks about seven spiritual bodies, which is mystical \u2013 you know those things about biblical, kabbalistic numbers? Then!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kardec has already demonstrated, through studies with the Spirits and in a scientific way, that what exists is the perispirit, formed by the universal cosmic fluid. Just that. This story of seven bodies, after all, is materialistic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Friend, I don\u2019t understand anything anymore! You mean everything I&#039;ve been told is wrong?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Not all, but most of it. When Spiritism was disseminated in Brazil, the Spiritist Movement was already worn out and weakened, due to an adulteration of principles after Kardec&#039;s death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, the question is this: do you want to study, or are you comfortable with what you experience in this center?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Ah, I feel good, and it\u2019s so difficult trying to understand Kardec!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Really, there are things difficult to understand in Kardec. But the dedicated study of the Spiritist Magazine, from 1858 to 1864, helps to understand a lot! Also, there are many study groups, and I myself participate in one. But, you see, these are study groups. There is no professor, nor is it a course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Give it a chance, study it, and your reason will lead you, with the intuition of good spirits, along the path that best suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2013 Yeah... I&#039;ll think about it...<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I didn&#039;t want to title this text. We don&#039;t need to give exhaustive names. It is enough that we understand the distance that exists between the Spiritist Movement and Spiritism. This distance needs to be overcome through dialogue, through facts, but only by those open to dialogue and learning. It&#039;s no use fighting the recalcitrant.<\/p>\n<div class=\"fb-background-color\">\n\t\t\t  <div \n\t\t\t  \tclass = \"fb-comments\" \n\t\t\t  \tdata-href = \"https:\/\/www.geolegadodeallankardec.com.br\/en\/artigos\/assuntos-diversos\/um-dialogo-interessante\/\"\n\t\t\t  \tdata-numposts = \"10\"\n\t\t\t  \tdata-lazy = \"true\"\n\t\t\t\tdata-colorscheme = \"light\"\n\t\t\t\tdata-order-by = \"social\"\n\t\t\t\tdata-mobile=\"true\">\n\t\t\t  <\/div><\/div>\n\t\t  <style>\n\t\t    .fb-background-color {\n\t\t\t\tbackground: #ffffff !important;\n\t\t\t}\n\t\t\t.fb_iframe_widget_fluid_desktop iframe {\n\t\t\t    width: 100% !important;\n\t\t\t}\n\t\t  <\/style>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&#8211; Ah, voc\u00ea \u00e9 Esp\u00edrita? Que legal. Frequenta algum centro? &#8211; Sim, frequento um perto da minha casa. &#8211; E o que voc\u00eas fazem l\u00e1? &#8211; Ah, a gente assiste palestra sobre o Evangelho, depois toma passe&#8230; A\u00ed a gente faz algumas preces, e vai embora. Tem tamb\u00e9m a evangeliza\u00e7\u00e3o infantil. &#8211; Aaah&#8230; Ent\u00e3o \u00e9 [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":12,"featured_media":6954,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[51],"tags":[36,11,22,49],"class_list":["post-6953","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-assuntos-diversos","tag-evocacoes","tag-manifestacoes-espirituais","tag-mediunidade","tag-obsessao"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v21.1 (Yoast SEO v27.2) - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-premium-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Um di\u00e1logo interessante - Grupo de Estudos O Legado de Allan Kardec<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.geolegadodeallankardec.com.br\/en\/articles-2\/miscellaneous-2\/an-interesting-dialogue\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Um di\u00e1logo interessante\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"&#8211; Ah, voc\u00ea \u00e9 Esp\u00edrita? Que legal. Frequenta algum centro? &#8211; Sim, frequento um perto da minha casa. &#8211; E o que voc\u00eas fazem l\u00e1? &#8211; Ah, a gente assiste palestra sobre o Evangelho, depois toma passe&#8230; A\u00ed a gente faz algumas preces, e vai embora. 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Que legal. Frequenta algum centro? &#8211; Sim, frequento um perto da minha casa. &#8211; E o que voc\u00eas fazem l\u00e1? &#8211; Ah, a gente assiste palestra sobre o Evangelho, depois toma passe&#8230; A\u00ed a gente faz algumas preces, e vai embora. 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